Well, read on...
So, I'm cleaning out my late father's car in order to part-exchange it next week (now probate is finally completed), and I arrive at the glove compartment.
All the usual detritus is there; spare pair of glasses (to be recycled via Specsavers), parking receipts, old tax discs and Sainsbury till receipts (to be binned), sweets (ditto), assorted vehicular and mechanical things like a first aid kit, tyre pressure gauge, etc, and then I hit paydirt. Right at the bottom, a hard black handle.
Pulling it out, I find...
...the 5 inch Fusion kitchen knife that my mother reported missing in action, still in its little plastic jacket!
*gulp*
'Why, no, officer, I've no idea how that got there..'Now, I think it must have been put in there about this time last year, when I helped her do a catering event for some friends who had their wedding anniversary. We couldn't get everything in my Jeep (we were catering for about 150), so my dad followed in his car with the rest of the things. He must have picked it up when we told him to bring over a spare knife in case we needed it, thrown it in the glove compartment, we never used it, and he forgot all about it.
A few weeks later, my mother noticed it was missing, but he probably couldn't remember ever picking it up, and we chalked it up as lost. It no doubt worked its way to the bottom of the glove compartment, so when maps were extracted, glasses thrown in and retrieved, etc, it wasn't immediately evident. I bought her a new one (a nice James Martin branded one) at Christmas, and we all forgot about it.
Until now.
Here's the kicker. For the last few months of his life, my father was innocently driving around in full contravention of NuLab's knife crime legislation, and since his death (as the only driver in the family, needing to keep his car running) so have I...
I wonder what would have happened if we'd ever been stopped and searched?
And it's a strict liability offence as well. No way you would escape some form of punishment.
ReplyDeleteYou are clearly a wicked, evil criminal and an example should be made of you.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, aren't NuLabour perfect in every way? How could their wise and beneficial legislation possibly be defective?
But also according to NuLabour, you are a Victim of Society, and therefore a bit of probation is what you need. And a £15 Victim Support Charge. Or is that only if you stole the knife? It's so hard to remember.
As Obo points out, a strict liability offence, and no excuses accepted.
ReplyDeleteIt will still happen, as used to happen regularly, that a tearful daughter will be cleaning out her late Dad's or Granddad's effects, when his long-forgotten service pistol turns up.
In the past someone like me would pick the piece up, leave it with a gunsmith, and try to get it made legal. No one would get into trouble even if the Constabulary declined to legalise it.
Or, the lady could call the police, and a sergeant would call round and collect it on his way home, thanking her for being responsible, and sympathising with her loss over a cup of tea.
Recent law and case law suggest that if our orphan even touches the gun, she is looking at five years.
Christ, I hate the bastards.
Another reason that EVERY law passed in the last 13 years should be revoked. Clean them out and start again with a little common sense.
ReplyDeleteI suppose the 50 cm machete I carry in my truck would be frowned on in the UK, as would the hunting rifle.
My condolences.
ReplyDeleteOT but you have good taste in knives. The Richardson Fusion knives are amongst the best of the readily available knives. I have a draw full of them. (I have however recently treated myself to a ceramic blade. Hard to find, staggeringly expensive, but my god they are sharp!)
Do you get a 50% discount on the sentence by admitting it in this blog; or, is it just 33.3%?
ReplyDeleteWell I'm stuffed then because I carry two pruning knives in my pocket all the time and a fair amount of the time I have ex-army machete 'secreted' on my person... okay it's in a large pocket in my jacket but then again I do a fair bit of allotment gardening so if I left them at the allotment I could be accused of being negligent.
ReplyDeleteLeave them there to be nicked by some yob and used in some hold up with my fingerprints on them or carry them back and forth on my person and risk getting frisked by plod should I be in 'the wrong place at the wrong time'!
What really gets my goat is the cretins in my town are in the majority as they voted in another Labour MP after the clown now known as Lord John Hutton 'retired'!
Screw the lot of them. If any yob tried to 'mug' me they are in for one helluva shock.
I think even the Stanley knife in my toolbox puts me at risk.
ReplyDelete3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.
ReplyDelete(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had the article or weapon in question with him—
(a) for use at work,
(b) for educational purposes,
(c) for religious reasons, or
(d) as part of any national costume.
It therefore follows that you were not in contravention of the above , even if you unknowingly had the item in your (fathers)car there would be little difficulty showing lawful excuse, that you were unaware of its presence is not an impediment, for you were not 'in possesion'
The allotment thing is slightly more complicated but you were in possesion with legitimate excuse as a part of the work you were undertaking, also bringing it out in the event of muggers assailing you could be seen as educational!;)
It's the reversal of the burden of proof that is particularly insidious. Instead of the prosecution being required to demonstrate ill intent "beyond reasonable doubt", the defence is required to demonstrate innocent purpose.
ReplyDeleteWhen I tried a knife case (as a juror) I took the position that the defence need be merely not implausible rather than convincing.
The judge was furious when we acquitted.
"And it's a strict liability offence as well."
ReplyDeleteAnother reason to loathe that particular bit of pointless legislation!
"You are clearly a wicked, evil criminal and an example should be made of you."
Indeed! :)
"Recent law and case law suggest that if our orphan even touches the gun, she is looking at five years.
Christ, I hate the bastards."
Yup, it makes no sense. It what way is this 'progress'?
"I suppose the 50 cm machete I carry in my truck would be frowned on in the UK..."
I think people have got in trouble for penknives before..! And as microdave points out, even obvious worktools like a Stanley knife are suspect now.
"OT but you have good taste in knives."
It IS a good one, and she was pretty miffed to have lost it, so I guess every cloud really does have a silver lining! :)
"Do you get a 50% discount on the sentence by admitting it in this blog..."
Worth a try! :D
"What really gets my goat is the cretins in my town are in the majority as they voted in another Labour MP after the clown now known as Lord John Hutton 'retired'!"
/facepalm
"...there would be little difficulty showing lawful excuse, that you were unaware of its presence is not an impediment, for you were not 'in possesion'..."
But surely, technically, I was in full possession? The car's now in my name, and has been since Christmas.
I certainly wouldn't like to test it!
"It's the reversal of the burden of proof that is particularly insidious."
Yes, it's creeping into our legal system bit by bit. The money laundering legislation is yet another example of this.
Possesion, is one of the most difficult areas of law to establish clearly as there are many types, according to Blacks Law Dictionary your instance would seem to fall to the test for;
ReplyDeletePossessio civilis= Legal possession;that is,possession accompanied by an intent to hold it as ones own.
Possession there fore includes 'intent' without knowledge where is the intent. Upon discovery by an officer of the law would you have attempted to clail ownership? or would you have said "take it".
If the knife had been on your person then yes you would have been in possession but in this case there should be enough room to argue successfully.
How then does anyone buy a knife and take it home as it must immediately become an offensive weapon the moment that you buy it in a shop (a public place) and transport it home! It used to be that if the blade waa wrapped up and would have to be unwrapped then the knife could not be considered as an offensive weapon (yours was sheathed and wrapped in a car)
Whilst I apreciate your point in making the above post, it would seem to be slim chance that a normal law abiding person with a lawful excuse for such possession would be successfully prosecuted as they would apply the test of public interest at the CPS stage anyway, however if you were engaged in an illegal activity such as drug dealing, prostitution etc etc then maybe they would view it differently!
PS what about all the people in campervans who have a portable kitchen with them? are their knives offensive weapons?
Whilst not a lawyer or such I would strnuously fight any such action brought against myself on the above arguments, no I would not 'like' to test it , but I would!
@Indyanhat: You faith in the CPS is touching, but also downright dangerous.
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain this case then:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosecuted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
In this case I don't even know a) why he was charged, and b) why he wasn't acquitted anyway, because from the picture its a penknife which is specifically allowed by law. But the CPS charged him and the magistrates found him guilty anyway. I have a horrible feeling he didn't have a lawyer and just admitted it all, because he's the sort of law abiding person who would assume the authorities knew what they were doing.
Its is blatently obvious (cf the harassment of photographers) that the police do not know (or actively ignore) the laws they are supposed to enforce.
Sobers, My faith in the system of Law is virtually non existent i the way it is practiced today by the various agencies involved, I would agree with you that he probably just threw his hands up and said "guilty", I am not advocating doing that at any time with them the burden of proof still has to reside with them and if you do not help them out , as it were, then they will not be able to proceed . An easy conviction is what they seek, so do not make life easy for them ever
ReplyDeleteThe only way to reverse the situation we are now in is to stand up for what is right, make them work for every conviction, people need to know their rights under the law and need to challenge bad decisions through appeal!
The case of photographers you mention is a classic case in this regard, where the police are exceeding their remit then they are vulnerable at appeal, if not in the first instance in the lower courts, know your rights under PACE and stick to them!!!
It is also important that you get a decent solicitor (and finding one of those is like looking for rocking horse shit)
Many cases get through today on the strength of the police pushing the 1/3 disscont of sentence for guilty plea thing...do not agree, as so many do, to a lesser sentence if you are not guilty in the first place!!1
See this bloke if you haven't already!!
ReplyDeletehttp://theantiterrorist.co.uk/?p=7
@sobers: the case you linked to was more complicated than it appeared; it was subsequently reported that the disabled caravanner in question was in the pub, making threatening remarks about a knife to various people, and had something of a track record in that regard.
ReplyDeleteKeeping a lock-knife to cut fruit is like having a 12 inch Rambo replica knife in a restaurant to eat your steak; it's not what a reasonable person would consider a reasonable reason for having it at that time, given the law as it's phrased. Your car, under the law, is a public place.
I'm not defending the law (it's stupid) but it is what it is and we deserve all we get for rolling over and letting governments get away with it. In this instance, it seems generally accepted that the police acted properly (i.e. within the law as it stands).
A Stanley knife in a toolkit shouldn't be any problem (but if you had the toolkit in the boozer at 11pm it might be).
@Formertory: do you have link to any follow up on that case?
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a lock knife in the picture in the article - it was a penknife he was holding. And the article mentioned a Swiss Army knife, which are not (AFAIK) lock knives. And presumably if it was an offensive weapon while in his car glove box, why was it not confiscated and destroyed after the case?
"See this bloke if you haven't already!!
ReplyDeletehttp://theantiterrorist.co.uk/?p=7"
Interesting link! Thanks.
"...we deserve all we get for rolling over and letting governments get away with it."
As Indyanhat points out, not enough people fight it. It's either too much trouble, or they are worried about getting the 'wrong' judge/magistrate...
"It wasn't a lock knife in the picture in the article - it was a penknife he was holding."
I wonder if that was just a bit of journalistic license?
Or the only knife he had to hand? Maybe they did confiscate it, leaving him with just that one for the photo?
Indyanhat is absolutely correct. True, the burden of proof lies with the accused but on a lower scale than that of the prosecution i.e. you would not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you had a good reason to have it with you. Unfortunately, knives are used in street fights, fights between gangs of youths and the law has had to be beefed up, to provide the offence framework. Anyone seeing the Channel 4 documentary last night on people being treated for such injuries should be in no doubt that even a short bladed knife - can cause appalling injuries. Thing is, from tests, even a trained person, alert to attack would have difficulty in reacting sufficiently quickly to a knife attack, even if they considered themselves to be a good safe distance away 15+ feet or more, as, unfortunately, tests have shown that, even if suitably equipped to deal with a knife wielding thug, statistically, you WILL be cut before you can form the necessary thought process to attempt a defence. I know, from personal experience... several stitches and one terrifying experience later. This was a knife that most people would use to eat their dinner, wasn't even really sharp, but with a whole load of fury behind it, still very effective. At least I managed to block the follow up stabs, aimed at puncturing my chest cavity, so thats okay, whats a few scars between friends?
ReplyDelete