What first attracted Michael Lyons to a career in the armed forces was an advertisement he spotted as a teenager, depicting the Royal Navy delivering humanitarian aid.Well, they aren't going to use images of the Iranian Navy boarding your boat and confiscating your iPod, are they?
Lyons, now 25, is beginning a seven-month term in military detention after being found guilty earlier this week of wilful disobedience of a lawful order. He was also demoted and dismissed from the navy, where he had served since 2005 as a medical assistant submariner.Not exactly the most shocking result ever, though it seems Libby can't quite get her head around it.
Perhaps it was simply the case that Lyons, who enlisted at 19, grew up.Clearly, not, if he thought he could get away with pouting and saying ‘Shan’t!’ when given a lawful order, Libby…
He is not the first, nor will he be the last, young man to enter the forces with a naive or partial view of all this commitment entails and then suffer the consequences.Libby, you see, believes the Armed Forces prey on young urban NEETs and that is clearly wrong.
The rising percentage of 16-year-olds joining up is arguably an inevitable result of spiralling youth unemployment. But it may also be the outcome of intensifying efforts to attract young people to a forces career – increasingly targeting those below recruitment age – following negative publicity around the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.So, lack of jobs means those who have come through the comprehensive educational system untroubled by the effort of reading, writing and adding up have an outlet, and that's somehow a bad thing in Libby's world?
Tim Worstall can't believe it either.
To Libby, you see, those things never happen to anyone other than ex-Forces personnel...
… the demographic that is targeted is significant. The armed forces draws non-officer recruits mainly from young people with low educational attainment and living in poor communities. Research suggests schools from deprived areas are more likely to be visited by recruiters, with particular focus on the north-east of England, Scotland and Wales."...with the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne..."
And Infantry recruits need only the literacy skills of a five-year-old to join. A large proportion appear to sign up for negative reasons, such a lack of civilian opportunities.What 'civilian opportunities' would they have, being as they are ruined by the progressives' 'all must have prizes!' schooling mentality?
There will, of course, be young men – and it is still mainly men – who enlist as teenagers, stay the course and avail themselves of every opportunity going. But there will likewise be those who will scrape a few years within an institution unsuited to their needs, then return to the communities they were escaping from in the first place, with no resettlement support and minimal transferable skills, perhaps having picked up a heavy drink habit or post-traumatic stress along the way. From this angle, the parachutist at the air show looks a lot less benign.
Well, they aren't going to use images of the Iranian Navy boarding your boat and confiscating your iPod, are they?
ReplyDeleteI think I've just read this year's sarcasm Oscar winner. Very worthy too.
Lyons is at best naive & at worst a coward ..
ReplyDeleteRoyal Naval MA's (Medical Assistants) are, quite righly (along with all other Military Medical Personnel) classed as being non-combatants ..
They are however required to be proficient & safe in the handling of loaded firearms .. Medical Assistants are usually armed with Pistols, in order to protect both themselves and their patients, should the need arise ..
They are also required to know how to make-safe a weapon (friendly or otherwise) ..
By refusing to undergo Weapon Training, Lyons let down his comrades, his potential patients, his Service .. but most of all himself ..
Granted, he was a Submariner .. but that doesn't mean he couldn't have been deployed elsewhere, subject to the exigencies of the Service ..
He was counselled, advised & talked to for over an hour by his Instructors at the time he made his refusal ..
He deserves to be where he is, because other people's lives could have depended on him doing as he was told, when he was told ..
In any case of doubt, the rule was always "Obey the last order, question it afterwards" ..
I also find Tim Worstall's comments deeply offensive ..
I joined the Armed Forces at 16 (having thoroughly done my research) .. I don't come from a "deprived" area, I originate from a relatively wealthy City ..
I did not grow up in a "poor community" .. I grew up in a community where every adult male I knew, was in full-time work ..
I did not join-up in order to "escape" anything .. I joined because it was what I wanted to do .. And now that I'm retired and look back on it, I wouldn't change a thing ..
OK, when I was cold, wet, tired, hungry etc .. I often though "WTF am I doing here" ? .. but that only lasted as until the next "wet" of tea .. or until one of my oppos cracked a funny (and there were lots of those) ..
On the whole I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the Armed Forces, visited some wonderful places, saw places & things which my contemporaries back home could only dream about and met some of the finest, most loyal and decent people it's ever been my privilege to know ..
So, Mr Worstall, my advice to you is .. Until you know what you're spouting about .. Shut-it & wind yer fucking neck in ..
Sometimes I read some of the tripe that the Left spouts, and wonder if they are the same species as me. They'd go extinct if it weren't for the rest of us having to carry them.
ReplyDeleteIf only they could be exposed to reality, unprotected from the consequences of their fluffy ideology.
Alternatively, put them in a safe enclosure, treat them kindly and feed them, and don't let them roam about or talk to functional humans?
Bravo, Cap'n!
ReplyDeleteI was under the impression that the only job in the British armed forces that allowed you NOT to bare arms was a religious role. The clue is in the title, 'ARMED forces'. So we are lucky to have a choice and if your bent is to save lives then perhaps the armed forces is not an organisation in which to ply your trade of saving lives?
ReplyDeleteIf the now rightly judged individual wanted to exercise their right to defend themselves using a reasonable force and not extend that to a lethal force then perhaps the private sector or any other public sector job than the armed forces might have been appropriate. I'm still confused if they or I can stab a home intruder to death for fun?
"Lyons is at best naive & at worst a coward .."
ReplyDeleteNo he's probably just a fuckwit.
Normally my sympathy goes to the Conscientious Objectors of this world and not the 'I was only following orders' brigade but in this case Lyons was totally in the wrong, morally and Military-Legally.
Surely just joining the 'A R M E D Forces' was enough of a clue? If he has , very valid, moral objections to even touching any sort of weapon why on Earth didn't he sign up for one of the countless medical charities/The Red Cross??!
Of course anyone in a 'weaponized' environment has to at least have had basic weapons training even if they are 'only' a cook or a medic. If only for Health & Safety reasons.
But Lyon's ignorance doesn't surprise me, Youngest Useless Object once went to an Armed Forces Info day (in a fit of rebellion against his father's view of Crown Forces) and returned declaring he intended to, and I quote: "join the navy an' learn to drive a tank"!
Seems the information given out to Kids by Crown Forces and Career's Advisors leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps the navy do have a small tank division for the guarding of Land Ships? I don't know but I'd have thought if one wanted to learn to drive a panzer then the Army might be a better choice?
He's a classic progressive martyr. And brooks is weeping crocodile tears about these young men. If she really gave two shits about them she'd be screaming for our shit state education system to be pulled to bits and rebuilt, but of course she doesn't. She just hates the armed forces, anything which isn't some far-left basket case
ReplyDeleteOh, and she was quite happy to lie about under-18s being killed in combat too. "Fake but true", it's quite the latest thing.
I expect while he is locked up for failing to do the job he signed up for, he will miss opportunities to help deliver humanitarian aid.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe a word of any of this. Plenty of enlisted men could do better than me on the Grauniad's crossword and that was back in near full employment. It's much harder to get in now, as with the cops. More of the 'poor thick' are excluded than ever, surely?
ReplyDeleteBeing trained to shoot hardly means you have to. And I hardly joined to point weapons at Irish people or Indonesians. I don't even believe the excuse given. I'm with Haddock - and more than that if this form of clown leftie mean what they say, we should either have National Service or the draft.
I do suspect these current wars are not for the country - but that's another matter.
XX In any case of doubt, the rule was always "Obey the last order, question it afterwards" ..XX
ReplyDeleteAye. Same in my mob (R.M.P). Funny how they would not except it as a defence at Nürnberg though.
"One rule for us and another for you".
Having participated in a minor way in one of them in the late 90s, I can confirm that most military personnel soon become aware that what is being fought for in recent wars is not what they tell you on the telly.
ReplyDeleteCaptain Haddock
ReplyDeleteThose aren't actually quotes from Tim Worstall. If you follow the link he's quoting Libby Broooks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-14097779
ReplyDeleteWT fuckaty F
even if this were 'gypsy' ponies and the locals got the hump still...
WT fuckaty F
I'm going there to find out now and whoever the twelve are they had better run and hide, hide good!
@Captain Haddock;
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen a particular comment from Mr. Worstall...
Can you enlighten us?
@ Staybrite & @ Robert Edwards ..
ReplyDeleteMea culpa, Mea maxima culpa ..
Due to being somewhat angry at the time, I confess to not actually following the link .. if I have put words into Mr Worstall's mouth, then I apologise unreservedly ..
In which case, my advice to him, applies to Libby Brooks ..
In my personal experience, I always found RN Medical Assistants to be the salt of the earth .. In fact, I know of two occasions when the lives of lads with whom I was serving operationally, were saved by the direct intervention of the "Doc" ..
@ Furor Teutonicus ..
Whilst I take your tongue-in-cheek (at least I hope it was) comment onboard .. I think you'll find that those who played the "Nuremburg Defence" card, were never given the opportunity to question orders afterwards, even had they wished to do so ..
XX Captain Haddock said...
ReplyDelete@ Furor Teutonicus ..
Whilst I take your tongue-in-cheek (at least I hope it was) comment onboard .. I think you'll find that those who played the "Nuremburg Defence" card, were never given the opportunity to question orders afterwards, even had they wished to do so XX
They were actually, and many Wehrmacht Officers, DID so. I do not see how it makes a differnce any way...however.
My main point, and interest, from training onwards when the "rule" was mentioned, was "If it did not work at Nürnberg, whay should we believe it will work for us?".
It was never answered.
What first attracted Michael Lyons to a career in the armed forces was an advertisement he spotted as a teenager, depicting the Royal Navy delivering humanitarian aid.
ReplyDeleteOr could it have been the Village People performing 'In the Navy'??
I was born in 1942, to a background that many on the left would die for. Mixed race - war baby; illegitimate - same reason and to a steel worker grandad.council house of course. Thanks to a proud working class who valued education above all else I grew up in a home that had as many books as they could afford I made it to grammer school and university. My late husband came from a mill worker background and was also able to climb the ladder for the same reasons. Now a widow I have a nice mortgage free house in the S.E. and we were able to give our children a much better life. It was never easy and we worked hard for everything we have, gradually getting up the housing ladder and not expecting to start with everything new. My grandchildren will have a decent start in life and that is all we could hope for. Do you think a child born in the same circumstances now would have the same chance? I very much doubt it thanks to the progressive agenda. Trouble as I see it is that most of these people have no idea of real working class life at all. The (very) old Labour wanted to lift people up the present lot only seem to want to patronize. What was the aspirational working class have become home owners and what they call the 'working class' now is essentially a non-working benefit class confined to sink ghettos. A terrible education has left them without ambition, ability and with little aspiration to improve their situation. My mother worked very hard and was stigmatized for keeping me, no benefits then for single mums. Perhaps unusually at the time her parents, though disappointed, stood by her. Sad after all these years it seems to me that we have gone backwards in so many ways.
ReplyDelete"I think I've just read this year's sarcasm Oscar winner."
ReplyDelete:D
"By refusing to undergo Weapon Training, Lyons let down his comrades, his potential patients, his Service .. but most of all himself .. "
Agreed!
" So we are lucky to have a choice and if your bent is to save lives then perhaps the armed forces is not an organisation in which to ply your trade of saving lives?"
Most certainly not.
"..why on Earth didn't he sign up for one of the countless medical charities/The Red Cross??!"
Because the pay isn't as good?
"...brooks is weeping crocodile tears about these young men. If she really gave two shits about them she'd be screaming for our shit state education system to be pulled to bits and rebuilt..."
ReplyDeleteSpot on!
"WT fuckaty F
even if this were 'gypsy' ponies and the locals got the hump still..."
Hardly likely to be locals. Far, far more likely to be an internal traveller clan dispute... :(
" Sad after all these years it seems to me that we have gone backwards in so many ways."
Indeed. Odd, for a movement that styles itself 'progressive', no?
those who played the "Nuremburg Defence" card,
ReplyDeleteCan I invoke Godwin's law here?
Lyons wasn't ordered to gas some jews, or to do anything that anyone(?) would regard as illegal. He was ordered to undergo weapon training, something he would have done many times previously in his service career. He objected because he did not want to go to Afghanistan - going to Afghanistan is not illegal, and neither is there any suggestion that he would be asked / ordered to do anything illegal whilst in Afghanistan.
If he "grew up" (!) and wanted to be a conchie he should have left the forces.
" Do you think a child born in the same circumstances now would have the same chance? I very much doubt it thanks to the progressive agenda. "
ReplyDeletePretty much sums a lot of things up. We do seem to 'go back by going forward'.
XX KenS said...
ReplyDeletethose who played the "Nuremburg Defence" card,
Can I invoke Godwin's law here?XX
No you fucking can't.
"Godwins law" is a pile of shite used by communist slime to escape any discussion which gets dangerously close to proving they are no different to nazi turds.
Or by nazi turds when the going gets too tough, but they can't be seen to throw in an actual towel.
A good response there from the Furor!
ReplyDeleteTidy that up into a good sound bite, and it should catch on as a standard defence to Godwin's gambit. :-)