Saturday 12 June 2010

”Parents often talk about the younger generation as if they didn't have anything to do with it.”

Nick Duerden on the perils of eating out with children in tow gives us a glimpse into the future and what we can expect when ‘progressive parenting’ has gifted us with the next generation:
Anyone who has had even a fleeting experience of eating out with children on the Continent will know that they do it differently over there. Across the Channel and beyond, toddler chaos in a public place is not a necessarily bad thing. In fact, it's almost encouraged.
No, actually, it’s not.

Toddlers eating with parents – yes. Badly behaved toddlers – no. That’s a mainly British thing.
Over here in the UK we conform to a more buttoned-up stereotype and take an altogether dimmer collective view of eating out with our children in tow. In short, we shouldn't; and if we really must, then we should at least do so lumped together, en masse, in the kind of restaurant that caters solely for our type, and in the kind of atmosphere that has more in common with a cattle pen than something low-lit and nicely Frenchified.
That’s because, so often, children are allowed – even encouraged – to behave like livestock by their indulgent parents…

It's not just children we object to in restaurants, but anyone who draws overt attention to themselves. I once interviewed Amy Winehouse in a Pizza Express.

The moment she stood up, swore, grabbed at her chest and hollered, "I've got my boobs back!", a great many customers complained.

How bourgeois, eh, Nick? Why should anyone object to that while they are trying to have a quiet meal?

Lola Borg, features editor of Mother & Baby magazine, concurs. A decade ago she, with her children, spent a year living in France.

"All very different, as you can imagine," she says. "In France, and I'm sure in Italy and Spain as well, there seems to be a much more collective attitude towards parenting: everybody gets involved, and the waiters speak directly to the children as well, they involve them. And they will also, if necessary, tell them off. They wouldn't be able to get away with that here."

And maybe, just maybe, that’s the crucial difference
Before starting a family ourselves, my wife and I would eat out regularly; most of what we earned we frittered away on overpriced Mediterranean fancies and ornate Japanese exotica.
I’m getting a picture of the Duerden family. It isn't a pretty one...
… our daughter was already something of a free spirit, and didn't take kindly to the constraints of a high chair. Within minutes, she would have breast-stroked her way across a table littered with plates, while dessert would invariably end up all over the floor like some kind of dirty protest. As she exhausted our patience, our very presence exhausted the patience of everyone around us. We took note. For the next couple of years, we ate in.
Well, quite. Far better to do that than to attempt to impart some manners into your hideous spawn, eh, Nick?
Like all sensible parents, we'd conferred beforehand with friends about the safest places to visit, those establishments that welcomed our kind. The mostly unwritten rules of family dining seem to be these: choose a place of hustle and bustle, its natural noise level so loud that one more wailing child is unlikely to bother anyone. Booths are good, as inevitable spillage remains effectively self-contained. Speedy service is also an absolute essential, as the child prepared to patiently wait half an hour for a plate of chips hasn't been born yet.
No, Nick, they never are born. They are made.

And that’s your job.
"Our staff are specially trained to deal with children," says Giraffe director Juliette Joffe. "They are patient, and understanding, and accommodating." I tell her that the last time we visited a waiter complained about my two-year-old (though, frankly, she had it coming).

"Yes, well," Joffe says, "children who run around too much can pose a very genuine hazard and so of course we will point this out if necessary."
You shouldn’t have to. Why does this utter pillock feel no shame about the fact that his children are badly-behaved, rude, arrogant little hellions?

We ordered pork belly and duck and, for the children, spag bol the way Nonna used to make it.

But the food took a while to come, and the children were hypnotised by the gaudy mirrorballs that hung from the ceiling, and the sparkly patterns they threw onto the marble floor beneath. Consequently, they spent most of their time running around in pursuit of light-fantastic snowflakes.

Afterwards, when our waiter arrived to clear away the messy remains, he noted that the spaghetti had hardly been touched. "Did you not like your pasta?" he asked my four-year-old.

My daughter, shy around strangers, directed her typically four-year-old response to me.

"They do it better at the crèche," she announced.

Before I could apologise, the waiter held up an ameliorative hand. He understood. Perhaps he has children himself.

And perhaps he was just restraining himself from bringing that hand down on your precious little princesses’ bottom.

Or yours

30 comments:

Clarissa said...

If either I or my brother had dared to act up whilst eating out with my parents they would have been mortified.

The glare from dad that promised a sound thrashing when we got home would have been more than enough to have us sitting down and not twitching for the rest of the meal.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Whoever wrote that is an insufferable twat.

It is true though that e.g. in Italy they are incredibly nice to children. Even the museum guards in the Vatican.

As to dining out with kids, you have to work your way up, start at McD's, then Pizza Hut etc until they are ready for normal restaurants.

Anonymous said...

God! What a wanker! This is perhaps my main hate, the thing that will get my blood pressure at max. They certainly do things differently on the continent but not the way this pompous cock reports. In the UK it seems that from whatever social class you come from, 'the kids' seem to have no manners and are never told off, told 'NO' or to sit down. As for using cutlety! With chavs I rationalise that they know not what they do; that they can't help themselves BUT enter a Starbucks or Neros, a Pizza Express or ZiZis when the yummy mummys and their litters are about and the noise level is ridiculous. They're like middle class creches as late as 9pm. Middle class people like this moron should know better. I don't think I've a read a more risible article for a long time.....and he gets paid to write this shit?

http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/news/mums-boycott-cafe/article-1771836-detail/article.html

the above article from the Kent Courier from January illustrates what 'we' are up agaisnt. Note the description of how 'mum' felt after being asked to keep her offspring quiet. The comments were magnificent but they seem to have taken these off. More supporting the Starbucks staff than supporting the traumatised selfish tart!

dr cromarty said...

The glare from dad that promised a sound thrashing when we got home would have been more than enough to have us sitting down and not twitching for the rest of the meal.

You've hit the nail on the head, Clarissa. There is no glare from these braying Guardianistas to their kids and they would be horrified at the thought of any physical chastisement. Which is why their horrible, badly-behaved, noisy brats cause havoc where ever they go.

Anonymous said...

I had a good laugh when I read this scantimonious garbage from a fully paid up member of the Guardian's own elite!

"Free Spirit!" Oh please pass me the vomit bucket somebody. All babies / toddlers are 'Free Spirits,' sunshine, because they don't know or understand the rules! Guess what 'Dad' this is where you and Mrs Guardian come in! It's your jobs to teach your child courtesy, good manners, and respect, and consideration for others, not to mention self-respect into the bargin (in my book you can't have one without the other!).

Our little girl is nearly six and we have eaten out with her since she was a baby. She was placed in a highchair, whether she like it or not! She had to get used to it!

How fair would it have been to the other patrons and staff, having our baby girl 'breaststroking across the table,' spilling food everywhere and wailing her head off.

Yes, they do things different on the continent alright you dilbert -they don't let their children run amoke! They teach them respect and good manners and respect for adult authority!

Our daughter now really enjoys eating out with us and we love taking her out! It means we all get time together as a family and our child doesn't show us up. She sits at the table and eats her food politely whilst chatting merrily away to us. Consequently we don't have to worry about her behaviour when we take her out.

She also knows the word 'No' and a stern glance from me is usually enough to bring her into line!

Get real Mr Duerden; you and your wife are pathetic, miserable parents! This is no way to raise your child. You're going to have an ill-tempered, ill-mannered brat on your hands. Oh, yes - god help you both when she hits her teens!

Still no doubt the rest of the world will be at fault then as now!

What a complete and utter fool you are!!

RantinRab said...

I hate other people's kids.

I can just about suffer the badly behaved brats who get the occasional telling off but the fools like the guy writing the article that think their own kids need to 'express themselves' etc need sterilising!

English Viking said...

I have 3 children. None of them EVER misbehaved in a restaurant.

None of them have Dyslexia, ADHD, Aspergers Syndrome, Bulimia, Dysmorphia, Autism or any of the other nonsenses invented by useless parents to excuse their very uselessness.

Perhaps it's because they were taught from day 1 what 'no' meant, and the consequences of ignoring the first, last and only warning; a sound slap to the legs.

The more I slapped my children, the less I had to slap them. Strange that.

Disenfranchised of Buckingham said...

I've managed to raise 4 kids, 3 female, without ever having a problem with behaviour in public.

In fact I don't remember having to punish any of this century - they can detect my irritation before I notice it myself.

The oldest is 22 and youngest 14 and I'm still waiting to see this mythical teen behaviour everyone talks about.

Foxy Brown said...

The urban liberal classes have their own peculiar social pathology, I witness the most appalling behaviour in some of the gentrified pockets of north London (Crouch End, Islington, De Beauvoir, Stoke Newington) on a daily basis. I remember seeing a girl, aged about four, riding a scooter in a garden centre. The shop was full of customers and the aisles were narrow - the space was extremely cramped. Needless to say the mother of the said brat did nothing, and allowed her child to continue "expressing" herself in a "creative" manner.

Foxy Brown said...

@English Viking,

Perhaps it's because they were taught from day 1 what 'no' meant, and the consequences of ignoring the first, last and only warning; a sound slap to the legs.

The more I slapped my children, the less I had to slap them. Strange that.


Smacking your children, you're a beastly, wicked man!! I'm going to tell Social Services.

English Viking said...

@Foxy Brown,

You needn't bother, they already know. I was thoroughly investigated by them, when a 'kindly' Headmaster reported my to Social Services for refusing to allow my children to undergo Islamic indoctrination in school. This was considered 'abuse'.

Guess what? They still don't receive Islamic indoctrination, I will still discipline them physically if I have too and the SS (Social Services, although its namesake is virtually equivalent) can kiss my axe.

elizabeth said...

"Perhaps it's because they were taught from day 1 what 'no' meant, and the consequences of ignoring the first, last and only warning; a sound slap to the legs.
The more I slapped my children, the less I had to slap them. Strange that."

I think this is a libertarian blog.
Is this a libertarian way of raising children? Slap em, scare em, ensure they don't have minds of their own but follow parental orders out of fear.
That's not a way to raise people capable of taking personal responsibility.

What the Guardian chap describes is irresponsible laissez-faire parenting, dangerous stuff, I agree.

What the commenter describes here is differently dangerous.

libertarian parenting is described here:

http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/

Mrs Rigby said...

Our offspring got used to eating out very early, and were always fastened into high chairs using reins, and had something quiet to do. They never misbehaved, never threw their food on the floor and never had the chance to wander round. As they got older they became more and more bemused by their rude/noisy/misbehaving peers, and surprised when they were told how 'good' they were - not only by staff but by other diners.

Why the heck can't people like the idiot columnist realise that others in a restaurant/bar are also paying for a meal - that might even be a special occasion - and do have the right to enjoy themselves too.

It's sickening to see Granny-in-her-best-frock have her meal ruined by a child she's never met, just because the brat's parents are too indulgent, too rude and too ignorant to do the right thing by other people.

English Viking said...

Elizabeth,

I'm not a Libertarian, you may have realised that by now.

If you were, you would surely have the opinion that you have no right to a 'say-so' in my life.

After numerous interrogations by the SS, they found that my methods of discipline fall within the legal framework of 'reasonable chastisement', so if even the SS cannot find a pathetic reason to prosecute me, perhaps you should learn to mind your own business?

blueknight said...

...I remember seeing a girl, aged about four, riding a scooter in a garden centre. The shop was full of customers and the aisles were narrow - the space was extremely cramped. Needless to say the mother of the said brat did nothing, and allowed her child to continue "expressing" herself in a "creative" manner...

It is the mother that needed the slap

Leg-iron said...

He's lucky he's not a smoker. people with a child habit can still do that indoors. We have to suffer secondary childbirth and we aren't allowed to complain.

Oh, and an anonymous liaison officer? What the hell use is that?

JuliaM said...

"The glare from dad that promised a sound thrashing when we got home would have been more than enough to have us sitting down..."

Ditto! Behaving wel in restaurants was one of the first things I learned.

"Whoever wrote that is an insufferable twat. "

The glaring lack of self-awareness shines off the page like a blinding light, doesn't it?

"In the UK it seems that from whatever social class you come from, 'the kids' seem to have no manners and are never told off, told 'NO' or to sit down. "

If anything, it's worse in well-to-do areas!

""Free Spirit!" Oh please pass me the vomit bucket somebody. All babies / toddlers are 'Free Spirits,' sunshine, because they don't know or understand the rules!"

Precisely! What ghastly 'parenting guide' has this fool been reading?

JuliaM said...

"I witness the most appalling behaviour in some of the gentrified pockets of north London (Crouch End, Islington, De Beauvoir, Stoke Newington) on a daily basis."

Yup, it's DEFINITELY worse in the best areas. I've seen that too.

"I think this is a libertarian blog."

Well, lots of libertarians visit. I can't say I'm wedded to any one political philosophy, though.

I just loathe and detest the left.

"Is this a libertarian way of raising children? Slap em, scare em, ensure they don't have minds of their own but follow parental orders out of fear."

You can't reason with unreasoning beings. That includes, I'm afraid to say, very young children.

All well and good trying persuasion later, when they can understand.

"As they got older they became more and more bemused by their rude/noisy/misbehaving peers, and surprised when they were told how 'good' they were - not only by staff but by other diners."

I remember MummyLongLegs saying the same.

So it's not that they can't see that better behaviour exists. Why can they not see that it's PREFERABLE?

JuliaM said...

"It is the mother that needed the slap"

I bet if that were allowed, it'd look like that famous scene from 'Airplane!'...

"He's lucky he's not a smoker. people with a child habit can still do that indoors. "

:D

Anonymous said...

English Viking; Good for you mate!

I'd have done exactly the same!

We are happy for our child to be taught about other people's cultures, but not educated in them - there is a difference!

We took the decision from day one that the Guardian reading Nazis of the left weren't going to tell our child what to think!

Our little girl goes to a private school where we as parents have a say in her education. They also do that funny old-fashioned 'discipline thing'!

We originally had her name down for the local state primary school (with its 'Satisfactory' Ofsted rating)but were also looking into the private schools in our area at the same time.

Our LEA's policy is to have your child's future teacher visit him / her at home - what a farce!

The teacher in question turned up with another woman whom she introduced as a 'TA' three minutes of brain racking later I realised she meant 'Teaching Assistant.'

Anyway, I was talked at not to for thirty minutes! Any questions I raised where brushed away and I was made to feel that our child's education was none of our concern
(other than dropping her off at the gates five days a week).

She also completely ignored our daughter and took no interest in her whatsoever!

I brouched the question of discipline and got my daughter to tell the teacher what me and her mum had been telling her for the last six months; "The teachers are in charge, and I have to do what they tell me, and not be naughty"

Call me old-fashioned but I rather thought that might have gone down well, the response; "Oh, don't worry! We do such lovely things you'll want to behave!"

Eh...yeah...er...okay! So you're bribing the children to behave (any good parent will tell you what a no-no that is!)

The next day we were down at the private school of our choice paying the first lot of fees and getting her name down!

English Viking said...

Anon @ 08.59,

Good for you too, that's exactly what I did in the end (go private).

I will never accept the ridiculous notion that teachers know better than parents, and quite a lot of teachers seem to object to this.

PS WV is bratiest, seriously.

elizabeth said...

English Viking

"If you were, you would surely have the opinion that you have no right to a 'say-so' in my life."
I wasn't attempting to interfere in your life, just commenting on the parenting methods you described.
It's not rational to use violence to raise children. I'm sure that like most parents your intention is to use the best method you know to raise your children. I was just sharing a different perspective.

"After numerous interrogations by the SS, they found that my methods of discipline fall within the legal framework of 'reasonable chastisement', so if even the SS cannot find a pathetic reason to prosecute me, perhaps you should learn to mind your own business?"
Apologies, there was nothing to indicate that your comments were private.

elizabeth said...

"You can't reason with unreasoning beings. That includes, I'm afraid to say, very young children."

It's only by respecting what reason they have that we will allow them to sustain their ability to reason.

Not everyone can be bothered facing the coercion of their own childhood and thinking about the sense in that.
It's not about laissez faire parenting, or raising kids to ignore the needs of others.

The King of Wrong said...

Elizabeth,

You seem to have some strange notions of libertarianism, and TCS appears to be the liberal childcare advice of Benjamin Spock mashed up with a bit of Ayn Rand.

Rationality is all well and good, but only ~50% of the population (Myers-Briggs 'xxTx' types, not a male/female split :P) make decisions that way, which is why economic theories based around rationality manage to uniformly fail to predict anything interesting about people's behaviour.

I realise it's very fashionable to talk of negotiation with kids to ensure commitment/"buy-in" to any agreements but, even if that's correct, it needs to recognise the immense disparity in bargaining power between the two parties. And the fact that vast majority of people in this country simply cannot negotiate. And the fact that "win-win" negotiations, while making up 50% of MBA textbooks and courses, make up only a tiny fraction of the games in the real world: to a first approximation, they do not exist.

JuliaM said...

"I brouched the question of discipline and got my daughter to tell the teacher what me and her mum had been telling her for the last six months; "The teachers are in charge, and I have to do what they tell me, and not be naughty"

Call me old-fashioned but I rather thought that might have gone down well..."


Not old-fashioned. Just unpractices iin the ways of the modern educational 'theories'... ;)

"It's only by respecting what reason they have that we will allow them to sustain their ability to reason."

But very young children don't have much in the way of reason - they are creatures of desire and appetite, unrestrained by parents they become tyrants.

Below a certain age, you may as well try to reason with your dog.

"I realise it's very fashionable to talk of negotiation with kids to ensure commitment/"buy-in" to any agreements but, even if that's correct, it needs to recognise the immense disparity in bargaining power between the two parties."

Quite.

Anonymous said...

I work as a teacher in middle class North London. The arrogance and behaviour of the children is shocking.

Anonymous said...

Elizabeth, "It's only by respecting what reason they have that we will allow them to sustain their ability to reason."


AHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, you are joking, yes?

My three-year-old believes she is Queen of the World. Let's take an example. We get out of the car, she refuses to hold hands and runs across a public car-park. When I get hold of her, she twists and turns in my arms, fighting with all her strength to free herself. She will continuously shout, "I WANT TO GET DOWN! I WANT TO GET DOWN!" ignoring everything I say. I will repeat to her, "I will let you go when you stop struggling" at various volumes from whisper quiet to shouting depending on my mood. This can continue for twenty minutes, by which time we are both exhausted, and she is in pain from the way I hold her to prevent her escape.

I have not struck her, but I have held her tightly and caused her pain. If I did this to an adult it would be assault. I'm fascinated to know the non-violent method with dealing with a child behaving this way.

elizabeth said...

Of course protective use of force is ok, but it needs to be genuinely protective.

Bottom line though, if you want your children to be safe you want children who will run to you in times of danger not children who will run away from you. So many children run away when their parents call.

If they cannot see the danger it's even more important that they are in the habit of running to rather than away from a parent. It's important that they trust you enough to just come when you call, because they know it'll be better than then thing you are preventing them from doing.

The other answer of course is to have children who do what you say because they are afraid of your response. Not a good long term option though.

that's all from me, anymore questions then go have a look at the TCS site.

Anonymous said...

So do you think my three-year-old understands I am using 'protective' force?

Do you think she recognizes it as me keeping her safe?

Do you think she's not afraid of me if I threaten to "hold her" when she refuses to sit on the naughty step?

I don't believe she would view this as any different from slapping.

elizabeth said...

"So do you think my three-year-old understands I am using 'protective' force?"

If it's truly protective with no element of "power over" then yes. It she's experienced you using force for other reasons then she won't understand. If you change she'll learn though.

"Do you think she recognizes it as me keeping her safe?"

If she has experienced adults/you restraining her from exploring/learning when it's incnvenient to them, then she may have trouble understanding the difference between this and genuine protection. This is pretty common parenting so many children have trouble with this.

"Do you think she's not afraid of me if I threaten to "hold her" when she refuses to sit on the naughty step?"

No I expect she is afraid of you then, and devestated that you withdraw love by placing her on the naughty step.

"I don't believe she would view this as any different from slapping."

You are right there is little difference.

I hadn't intended to take up the blog comments any more.
You have genuine questions. There is a discussion list linked from the TCS site. If you have more questions go there.