Lewisham police said there was little that could be done because the account by the neighbour had been reported by a third party and not the witness itself.But I bet you don’t take the same tack the next time someone complains about an ‘offensive’ comment not directed at them….
Wednesday, 6 July 2011
Oh, How Very Convenient For You, Lewisham Cops…
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I thought UK dogs had leads, why do the Cops use the Americanism 'leash'
The police use that excuse whenever it's too politically tricky for them to want to get involved.
Some years back a young teenage girl told me that her own father was raping her.
It was highly likely to have been true.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm the last person on the planet to believe any rape allegation, especially from a 'troubled'teenage girl and local 'bike' but this was credible for other reasons and secondly if it's a case of child abuse one really has no choice but to report it.
so I told a member of CID (whom I knew to have a heart of kids).
I got the exact same excuse; ie as the girl herself or someone like a social worker or teacher hadn't reported it they would NOT investigate.
My demand of 'A possible crime has been reported and you are legally, morally and duty bound to record it' was met by a sad smile, shrug
and 'I know mate, I agree but that's the way we are told to do it'.
*erratum
"so I told a member of CID (whom I knew to have a heart of kids"
should read 'for kids' of course not that he was involved in some organ smuggling ring....
The name of the dog (Tyson) tells you all you need to know about the owner.
Perhaps just as the whole Sellafield/windscale rebranding exercise worked for the nuclear power station, we could do something similar.
Let's have the name of the breed changed from pitbull or whatever to say "Pink fluffy fairy dogs" Can you see a single chav wanting to own a pink fluffy fairy dog?
We should avoid unfairness to police through habitual use of the least complimentary terms, when describing inactions or responses.
It is difficult to see what Lewisham police could have done differently in these circumstances, Julia.
I get the impression of a thug taking a vicious animal out for a spot of local intimidation; knowing the inadequacies of the law through considerable experience of flouting it.
Can those spring-loaded reels with a clip on the end really qualify as a lead, or a leash? The damn things are a menace, they allow the dog to sweep out a circle anything up to 20 yards in diameter, within which any pedestrian or other animal walks at their peril. Since the spring inside the reel is too weak to pull back even a pink fluffy fairy dog, the dog owner can only try to control the dog by pulling back 10 yards of lead hand-over-hand after dopping the reel - something the owners always seem unwilling to do. To my mind, such as it is, the use of these anti-social devices brands the dog owner as one of the irresponsible sort. And no, the dog is therefore not under control.
"The name of the dog (Tyson) tells you all you need to know about the owner".
So what exactly do you mean by that?
My Staffie is called "Tyson", OK we inherited the dog but that was the name he came with.
You wouldn't be making wildly presumptuous blanket statements based on your own prejudices by any chance?
"So what exactly do you mean by that?
My Staffie is called "Tyson", OK we inherited the dog but that was the name he came with."
Try to deny reality all you like, but having a dog named "Tyson" sends out signals whether you like it or not.
In happy fluffy land everyone would give you the benefit of the doubt.
This isn't happy fluffy bunny land, and only a twat with something to prove names a staffy "Tyson".
Sorry.
P.S. I am aware YOU didn't name it, so the 'twat' isn't referring to you.
But I bet you don’t take the same tack the next time someone complains about an ‘offensive’ comment not directed at them…
Reckon it's worth testing that theory. Probably at least fifty times to be certain, or until they've made complete tits of themselves. Whichever comes first.
... the dog owner can only try to control the dog by pulling back 10 yards of lead hand-over-hand after dopping the reel - something the owners always seem unwilling to do.
There's a reason for that, PT. You can get quite an impressive friction burn if the soppy bastard runs off while you're trying to haul him back in, and if you drop the reel you're very likely indeed to see it, the lead and the dog disappearing into the distance as you blow on your smoking palms in an attempt to put them out.
However, that doesn't mean you can't control the dog with an extending lead. I pull the dog back with the lead locked and then hit the release and throw my hand forward at the same time, which lets the reel pull in about five or six feet of lead. Which I instantly lock again before repeating the cycle. Takes me about fifteen seconds, probably less, to reel him in, and if need be I can pull him away faster still simply by walking backwards while I'm doing it.
I assure you, I have the dog under good control off lead (to the limits of his mildly retarded doggy brain) and complete control while he's on the extending lead, though I concede that anyone daft enough to try and pull the fucker back as you described probably is not in control of their dog. I can't imagine anyone would think the spring would do it for them. It's only to retract the lead. If it was strong enough to pull the dog back in it would stop him going in the first place and defeat the object of an extending lead.
@ angry exile
That you can handle an 85lb dog on a spring loaded reel is about as persuasive as the control you have over your own language.
I do not have a dog but it seems obvious that a spring lead will teach it to pull and maintain tension. It will never learn to walk on a normal lead.
Yet I do hope (to the limits of your doggy owning brain) you remember to let go when it next darts under a fast moving lorry.
"P.S. I am aware YOU didn't name it, so the 'twat' isn't referring to you".
Well that makes me feel so much better!!
I got the dog as the original owners both worked leaving him home alone all day, and then wondered why he shat everywhere and chewed all the furniture!!
Baring in mind the dog is 11mths old, brown, bone crunching, and hard as fuck, what name do you think best describes him but still rhymes with "Tyson"?
There's Titan, Simon or Diamond but then again I could just call him the name he answers to and not really give a fuck about what you think.
@ Budvar So what exactly do you mean by that?
My Staffie is called "Tyson", OK we inherited the dog but that was the name he came with.
You wouldn't be making wildly presumptuous blanket statements based on your own prejudices by any chance?
Five will get you fifty, that the majority of people with dogs that they named Tyson have aggressive tendencies and probably aren't over educated. The name obviously derives from former heavyweight champ, ear-biter and convicted rapist of the same name.
It's like naming your dog Charles Manson or Himmler or Attila but then saying you can't make assumptions based on a name. People can and do. They are often right.
I accept you inherited the name, but the very fact that the former owners who presumably did name him, were fuckwits, rather substantiates my case.
Putting aside the bickering here over dog names, the meat of the story appears to be that you tell the bobbies about a potential crime and they say action can only come a complaint from the victim. Or witness.
On balance, makes sense. Otherwise everyone will be calling the cops day and night to say there are lunatics at the local mosque and they should do something about it.
My problem with spring loaded leads is that people almost always end up using them one handed. T
No one can control, really securely control, any medium sized dog with only one hand on the lead. Watch any professional dog handler and you'll see they always try and have both hands on the lead. One on the end/loop and the other someway down the lead depending on what they are doing. Which is why professionals still tend to use leather leads not nylon.
Infact Attack Dog Handlers try and have the lead going behind their back/arse as well for good measure. I know because I worked as one for a bit and I learnt very quickly that even I, as a 6ft broad shouldered 'solid' man, couldn't actually control even a Labrador without using both hands and all my body weight...if said pooch (admittedly brutalized to the point of psychosis) REALLY wanted to go somewhere.
When I was a police officer it was SOP (standard operational procedure)to have just a bit more than a cursory look at any credible reports made by a third party just in case there was some reason that the 'victim' felt unable to speak to the police. We unearthed quite a few good cases like that, one or two quite serious ones, too.
With regard to the case mentioned by Shinar's Basket Case, the officer hearing that sort of complaint, even second hand, MUST ensure that the information is brought to the attention of a senior officer (usually Inspector) as soon as possible. The victim could be, and usually is subject to all sorts of vile threats if they mention a word of what is going on. That's why the investigation is both covert and urgent.
MTG, thank you for your comments. I try to keep mine in a tone of banter and choose my words, including the swearwords, carefully. I didn't resort to abusing you or judging you - as distinct from abusing and judging infuriatingly irresponsible dog owners who've clearly given no forethought to using an extending lead - and I'm going to resist it now. Yes, even though you've openly wished death to my dog while knowing almost nothing about him. Not his breed, his temperament, his age, his size (even as a non-dog owner you must be aware of the huge range, so I'm curious to hear why you've decided he must be 85lb), when and where we walk him, when and where we allow full extension, whether he's been trained, whether he's old and toothless. In fact not a damn thing beyond his gender and species. But you're happy to wish him dead anyway. Fine, and although I won't abuse or judge you I will say in return that I hope your toilets become blocked and back up over your floors. On Christmas Day. Right after you've eaten.
To reiterate, the spring does not control the dog and isn't supposed to. I can't make it plainer. It has one purpose and that's to retract the lead. It could as easily be a little fishing reel type handle, which would also be useless for anything else. You use the fact that the lead can be locked to control the dog. (Oh, and obedience classes - I didn't pay for those along with his annual registration fees because I'm allergic to money.) Lock-pull-retract-lock-pull-retract-lock-pull-retract. It takes as long to type it as to do it. Unlike the spring it can manage the weight and strength of the dog. I could certainly yank him clean off his feet with it, probably doing him some harm in the process. I realise that the idea probably doesn't please you as much as, say, throwing his ball onto the freeway, but too bad.
You admit that you don't have a dog and then say it seems obvious that a spring lead (again the spring obsession) will teach it to pull and maintain tension. In my experience dogs will pull against all leads and they don't need to be taught. It's a tendency they come into the world with. They don't do it all the time and can be trained to pack it in when told to, but they're invariably bright enough to know what the lead means and so they get excited and pull against it. It's just a dog thing, though more so with younger dogs than older ones. That spring you think gets them in bad habits? They have no idea it's there or what one is, and barely notice the trivial tension on the lead until it runs out or is locked.
Just forget about the spring. It's as relevant as the oven timer is for stopping your car. Stay! Wait! Come here! These and other commands do almost all the dog control work. The only reason the lead is there is because I want a backup for voice commands, because there are fines here for loose dogs in off-lead areas, and because my dog doesn't have a great of road sense and could well end up under a tram if he was loose. If that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling then I hope your toilets back up the day after you go on a two week holiday as well.
Great deal of road sense.
/facepalm
@ angry exile
I am gutted that you should misinterpret my very best wishes for some malicious death wish for your dog. I have often seen dogs and cats dart under lorries and survive that experience. I was offering my 'let go' advice purely for your own health and safety.
And the weight of a pet dog is reliably derived from the product of APM (average pet mass) and OEI (owner ego index.)
I do hope your Xmas curse won't fizzle and disappoint. This could prove to be the Mother of all freebie banquets for freeloading in-laws.
Hang on, the police aren't claiming the cat owner hasn't reported a crime, they are claiming something else (which I'm finding hard to work out from the article). They appear to be saying that the witness report (the neighbour who saw the attack happen) has been reported by someone else and therefore they can't do anything.
Which is nonsense. A crime (potentially) has been reported (dog kills cat, possibly while not under control) by the victim (cat's owner). There is a witness to the attack. Why have the police not interviewed said witness to see if there was evidence the dog wasn't under control, and to see if they could identify the owners?
Why have the police not interviewed said witness to see if there was evidence the dog wasn't under control, and to see if they could identify the owners?
If I have read the article correctly, it appears that witness 'A' saw the attack and told witness 'B' who told the owner. Unfortunately this is hearsay and although it could be useful if witness 'A' had given witness 'B' a description of the offender, what 'A' told 'B' cannot be used as evidence.
"In my experience dogs will pull against all leads and they don't need to be taught."
Angry Exile, Your experience is correct in respect of an untrained, undisciplined dog. My experience as a dog handling class instructor and obedience championship winner (OK, in a previous life!) tells me that a trained dog does not pull on the lead, but such training is only possible using a proper dog lead with a slip collar. Extending reel leads only encourage canine disobedience, and training or controlling the dog with them is impossible.
Whooops, PT. Has nobody told you that Angry Exile is too awesome to be wrong about anything?
MTG, I believe you if you say so. Many wouldn't. FYI he's a bit under 20kg and I'm a bit over 100. He can't drag me anywhere I don't want to go, but thank you for being so concerned for my well being.
PT, he pulls, I say 'Wait', he stops pulling. Extending lead or normal, same either way. If he stops doing what he naturally wants to do when told to stop is that undisciplined? Would that obedience have happened on its own without training? This may be tomayto tomahto stuff and we simply have different standards for what constitutes trained and disciplined or not. Mine's certainly not the most highly trained in the world and probably not even in the street - he'd be a lousy sheep dog, for example, but then he's never seen a sheep or been trained for that - but a dog who reliably does what he's told when he's told surely gets some credit.
"I thought UK dogs had leads, why do the Cops use the Americanism 'leash'"
Good point!
"The police use that excuse whenever it's too politically tricky for them to want to get involved."
Or just can't be bothered, or see it as something that won't figure on their list of targets to hit.
"Try to deny reality all you like, but having a dog named "Tyson" sends out signals whether you like it or not."
It's indicative of the mentality of the people that named the animal, that's certainly true.
"However, that doesn't mean you can't control the dog with an extending lead."
I wonder how you'd fare if it bit a cop? Would they try the old 'oh, it's not out of control as it's on an extendy-lead' then?
"There's Titan, Simon or Diamond but then again I could just call him the name he answers to..."
He'll answer to anything, with enough repetition.
"Why have the police not interviewed said witness..."
Can't be bothered? Let's hope a child in the owner's family is savaged soon by the same dog, if only to see them sweat.
" Unfortunately this is hearsay and although it could be useful if witness 'A' had given witness 'B' a description of the offender, what 'A' told 'B' cannot be used as evidence."
Agreed, however it'd be a start, wouldn't it?
"...I learnt very quickly that even I, as a 6ft broad shouldered 'solid' man, couldn't actually control even a Labrador without using both hands and all my body weight...if said pooch (admittedly brutalized to the point of psychosis) REALLY wanted to go somewhere."
The advantage of four legs over our bipedal locomotion...
I wonder how you'd fare if it bit a cop? Would they try the old 'oh, it's not out of control as it's on an extendy-lead' then?
Not what I said. I'm just saying that a dog can be on an extending lead and under control, not that being on an extending lead automatically means it's under control. If he ever bites someone without provocation (and he's only ever given us accidental nips - the cats I've had over the years have inflicted worse and I can remember most of the events that go with the various little scars, and the less said about pilling our current pair last month the better) then pretty clearly I wouldn't have him under control. If he bit a cop I'd probably say 'Please don't shoot my dog, officer' ;-) but what kind of owner would let their dog get in that situation when all the cops are armed? Well, a stupid and irresponsible one, the type that can't be bothered to carry a few plastic bags to pick up after them, yes, of course. The ones that do equate simply putting on a lead, any kind of lead, even a length of clothesline, as controlling the dog. Yes, they're idiots and anti-social and they infuriate me, and not least because the lazy bastards are the reason I feel the need to take extra bags.
Names like 'Tyson' etc. would be a red flag at the kennels for most people when choosing a rescue dog; wouldn't it be a nasty surprise to get one called Prince, and then find out the previous owner had named it after Prince Vlad of Wallachia, aka 'the Impaler' or 'Dracula'.
@Blueknight: It matters little if witness A told neighbour B who told the owner IF witness A is still available to speak to police. If witness A is unknown (ie a passerby who saw it happen, told the neighbour, but then went on their way without identifying themselves) then I agree the evidence of the neighbour is hearsay and useless. But the article doesn't say whether witness A is known or not. If not the cat owner should be appealing for them to come forward, as she could then demand the police take a statement.
Otherwise are you saying that if I come home to find my car windscreen smashed in and my neighbour says Mr Bloggs from two streets away was passing saw it happen, some youths broke it with a brick, that if I report said crime to the police they will refuse to investigate because the witness hasn't spoken to me directly?
"If I have read the article correctly, it appears that witness 'A' saw the attack and told witness 'B' who told the owner. Unfortunately this is hearsay and although it could be useful if witness 'A' had given witness 'B' a description of the offender, what 'A' told 'B' cannot be used as evidence."
Indeed ...
Except ...
Evidence is what you use when you take somebody to court. Not what you expect to have before a police investigation starts. Evidence is the result of the police investigation and then somebody decides whether there is sufficient probative evidence for a charge and a trial.
Police investigations have been started from anonymous tips, paid informers and a copper on the beat having an itchy felling in the back of his head.
Sometimes, you start an investigation with lots of evidence - a dead body, somebody with a bloody knife in their hand, weeping and yelling that the "voices made me do it." Often these are the cases the police get wrong because the obvious theory of events is so overpowering.
I've left it a few days but i'm still reeling from MTG's comments....he seems to hate dogs more than the police.This was an ideal blog to have another unnecessary dig but he has resisted.Somehow a cat getting killed by a dog is the police's fault.Dogs chase cats,cats chase mice.Please watch Tom and Jerry for research
Jaded
Good Evening, Jaded.
I have opened a delicate wine and left it to breathe. I hate waste otherwise I would offer you a trumpet so help yourself to a beaker of water from the kitchen tap whilst you tell me about your rough day, dear.
Jim + Surreptitious Evil,
Agreed. I did make that point. Police should speak to 'B' to discover any information about the offence and the identity of the eye witness.
Until they do, none of us has any idea what evidence could be uncovered
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