Monday 2 January 2012

Am I Being Churlish...?

Because I see nothing but sinister intent with this:
Members of the Methodist Centre, in Midland Road, joined with those from The Wild Goose Cafe, in Stapleton Road, to offer dinners made with halal meat.

Meat is termed halal if it comes from animals that have been slaughtered in accordance with Islamic law.

Thanks to a donation from Pak Butchers, which has shops in Easton and St Paul's, more than 100 homeless, old and vulnerable people will be able to enjoy a traditional festive feast and hot meals in the future without breaking their religious promises.
I see nowhere in this article that there's a choice offered, despite the word being used liberally.

Is it a case of 'It's all halal, so either eat it, or go hungry'...?

And is it me, or does this Methodist minister seem childishly naive?
Mr Webb said: "We do have a lot of Muslim men using our drop in centre who will be very pleased to know we can offer them halal meat on a given day.

"We usually serve around 60 people and recently we had up to 108 guests. This unique example of generosity will reach across the East Bristol community, and chimes very much with the Christmas message."
A message from a competing religion...? Hmmm....

37 comments:

Mark Wadsworth said...

No you're not.

When was the last time the Islamists offered non-Halal meat to all their diners to welcome in the Christians? Or kosher meat to welcome Jewish people? Or beef-free meals to welcome Hindus? etc etc.

Gallovidian said...

Not ideal to see British people supporting ritual slaughter.

Nigel said...

What is 'unchristian' about Halal meat? It's only cut in a different way.
Continental butchers use different cuts. Are you suggesting that a donation of produce from, say, a French butcher should be dismissed because of a different trim or that 'we don't eat Entrecote'?
I assume that being a Christian mission, the food is blessed before the meal. Surely this goes some way to de-heresify any latent islamic influence. ALternatively there is always mint sauce.
N

JuliaM said...

"No you're not.

When was the last time the Islamists offered non-Halal meat to all their diners to welcome in the Christians?"


Thanks for that. Yes, you're right. It's only ever a one-way street, isn't it?

"Not ideal to see British people supporting ritual slaughter."

No. It isn't.

"What is 'unchristian' about Halal meat? It's only cut in a different way."

Eh..?

No, actually, it's meat from animals ritualistically slaughtered, often without pre-stunning.

"I assume that being a Christian mission, the food is blessed before the meal. Surely this goes some way to de-heresify any latent islamic influence. "

I suspect you're as wrong about Christian practices as you are about Muslim ones...

KenS said...

@Nigel

Two things: One, the thing that makes meat Halal is the way the animal is killed. If you are happy with it, fine, but be aware of it.

Two, what gets to most people is the way Halal meat is being sneakily introduced to the mainstream, as are other things Islamic. How long before situations arise where Sharia law starts applying to non Muslims in this country?

Lerxst said...

The problem is not that it's "cut" in a different way; the issue is that it is slaughtered in a different way.

With most meat in the country, there is at least an attempt to stun the animal before slaughter (eg with a bolt gun). While I've seen anecdotes about the procedure occasionally going wrong, in general it seems to be successful.

By comparison, halal slaughter involves cutting the animal's throat and then leaving it to bleed to death - a process which, the Government's Farm Animal Welfare body has suggested, can take up to 2 minutes for cattle.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable, to say the least, with halal slaughter remaining legal. I'm a committed meat eater, but I still want my dinner to suffer as little as possible on its way to my plate.

Not a fan of Mo said...

If I see a takeaway with that cosy halal symbol on its menu, I go elsewhere.

I would recommend all non-muslims to do the same.

Mick Turatian said...

in general it seems to be successful

In a modern abattoir the stunning is delivered by a caliper which will only discharge if the contact is effective which should eliminate any fail rate.

There are serious welfare issues surrounding halal kill which have their origins in hygiene factors in an age before refrigeration and in hotter climates than ours and consequently have no place in our society.

Show me the politician with the nerve to advocate banning a practice that involves considerably more suffering than hunting with hounds.

Please.

Paul - Nottingham said...

As far as I'm aware, most of the meat sold in supermarkets is halal anyway, they just don't tell us about it.

Halal is kosher with a different accent.

Stick to the pork chops and bacon is my advice

Angry Exile said...

Or kosher meat to welcome Jewish people?

I understand from both Jews and Muslims that halal and kosher are interchangeable to a large extent, and since there isn't anything like as much fuss made over kosher practices (or for that matter much made of halal pre-2001) I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it. Animals butchered under halal still have a more humane end than almost all of us can look forward to - I'll take bleeding out in a couple of minutes with unconsciousness arriving before that over a slow and painful decline in and out of hospital, desperately wishing for a pint of barbiturates and hating food animals for their easy exit however they're slaughtered. It's not that I'm for unnecessary suffering in death in animals, it's just that I find the unnecessary suffering in death typical in our own species so vastly more obscene.

As for why Methodists would want to offer halal food and whether it's sinister, if it was me running the thing I'd sure as hell be doing the same and it would indeed be for sinister reasons, though perhaps not the one you'd think. They say the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and if I wanted people to come through my door and listen to my dogma the very first thing I'd do is get hold of their cookbooks and offer them a free feed of something they'd be more than happy to eat... and when their mouths were nice and full I'd start talking.

In this case it's probably not that because Methodists strike me as being a bit too nice for that kind of sneakiness, so this is probably just being done in the spirit of inclusion or whatever. Probably. If there's someone like me involved then perhaps not. You'd all better pray I never catch religion, because I'd play very dirty. :-D

English Viking said...

Christians are forbidden from eating food which has been sacrificed to idols. That is their objection, not the method of slaughter.

Kosher meat is OK for Christians because the riyuals are carried out in the name of Jehovah.

CrossWeegie said...

Yes - you are being Very Churlish because you see this as "...A message from a competing religion...".

You call it "sinister intent"; I call it charity, not a word exclusive to Christians, or any other group.

I assume you are at least nominally Christian but, if you will excuse me, a very small minded one

Budvar said...

"What is 'unchristian' about Halal meat?".

Oh I don't know, could it be that it's sacrificed to an Idol or pagan god? You know one of the cornerstones of the Judeo-Christian belief system.

Tattyfalarr said...

Who ever adhered to their religion when there was free stuff involved ? All this does, really, is expose the hypocrisy on both sides.

Captain Haddock said...

If there's nothing "wrong" with eating Halal meat .. then why is this a case in point ? ..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2080805/We-wont-eat-halal-meat-say-MPs-peers-reject-demands-serve-Westminster.html

It seems that the hypocritical, multi-faceted PTB don't want to eat it but are quite happy for the rest of us to do so, whether we're aware of the fact, or not ..

I don't wish to eat Kosher meat for the simple reason that I'm not Jewish .. I don't wish to eat Halal meat for the simple reason that I'm not Muslim ..

Because, for the sake of profit, New Zealand slaughters all its lamb in the Halal fashion, I have boycotted it .. similarly, I have boycotted products from Morrison's which bear the Halal symbol & have made the local management aware of my reasons for doing so ..

I will not eat Halal products by choice .. and I'm damned if I'll eat them by stealth ..

Should anyone find my right to choose, offensive .. my asnswer is simple .. Tough Shit !

Lady Virginia Droit de Seigneur said...

Julia - there are other considerations to the slaughter of halal meat that are pertinent.

Depending on the source the person slaughtering the animal must be a muslim or at least of the People of the Book (Muslim/Christian/Jewish). Other religions are excluded - I guess this includes Hindus, Buddhists and other East Asian religions.

It is also a requirement that the name of God - Allah - is invoked at the time. One suspects that most people prepared to do this are Muslims.

We therefore are having a method of slaughter imposed by stealth that is barbaric, excludes many members of our society from involvement in preparation and requires someone to mutter a spell over it!!

I'm all for religious freedom but I'm convinced at some point the wider population of the UK will have to make a stand against Islamic encroachment on the way the majority population lives.

Conniesdad said...

What I want to know is, is there a chance that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is halal.

I feel we should be told!

Gallovidian said...

"Kosher meat is OK for Christians because the riyuals are carried out in the name of Jehovah."

Unless of course the Christians are concerned with animal welfare.

Hexe Froschbein said...

And for his next stupid trick, the minister will be offering pork to muslims and rabbit to jews, and after that, invite the local satanist to serve roast baby.

Woman on a Raft said...

We therefore are having a method of slaughter imposed by stealth that is barbaric,

There is nothing barbaric about exsanguination; it is the standard and required way of dispatching animals apart from some field-caught game. This requires the blood vessels to be cut but for the animal to remain alive with the heart beating, in order to help expell as much blood as possible so that the muscle will not spoil so quickly. This is why the animal is hung, so that gravity will assist the exsanguination.

All that is at issue is whether pre-stunning will be used or not. This concentration on the last two minutes (or less) of an animal's life needs to be seen in the context of its entire existence. A principled objection to conscious slaughter has to be linked to a willingness to pay top-dollar for natural-reared stock from identified sources and slaughtered close to home - otherwise it is sentiment, not conscience, which is talking.

In ritual slaughter the expenditure of an animal's unique life and the debt owed to God for it, is recognized not just once but with every single cut. It would be no bad thing to have much closer supervision of both Halal and Kosher slaughter if only to make sure the paying public were getting what the ritual requires: calm, separation of animals, exceptionally sharp knives, (a fresh knife per sacrifice in kosher slaughter) and superior hygiene. A great deal of washing is required; the waiting animal is not to be put in fear by the smell of blood.

That pre-stunning makes animals unaware of death is one way to view it; that pre-stunning reduces animals to protein and fat commodities which can be processed more smoothly and cheaply is another way.

You pays yer money...

Anonymous said...

is bleeding to death comfy?

Dr Cromarty said...

is bleeding to death comfy?

I've seen it in humans and there are worse ways to go...Usually very quick if a big artery is involved with a rapid shift to unconsciousness.

As to the halal issue this is meat sacrificed to a false god (The Allah invoke by Mohammedans is not the God of Christians, whatever they might say). Hence this is unacceptable to Christians.

The other issue is that the minister is being insufferably right-on. As for the punters, if they are that hungry they could always convert and enjoy a nice bacon butty.

Captain Haddock said...

"A principled objection to conscious slaughter has to be linked to a willingness to pay top-dollar for natural-reared stock from identified sources and slaughtered close to home - otherwise it is sentiment, not conscience, which is talking" ...

In my case its not even a matter of conscience and certainly not a matter of religion (I've eaten game, snared by myself & others, in the wild) .. the difference being, I knew precisely what I was eating & exactly why (it was part of a survival situation, for training purposes) ..

What I object to, most strongly, is being routinely denied the opportunity to make my own choices, based on the stealth, duplicity & deliberate deceit (for whatever reasons) of other people ..

I'm fortunate in having ready access to a superb local butcher, who's more than happy to provide details of where he sources his meat .. even to the extent of naming the farms & farmers who supply him, so I know that my meat & poultry is locally reared, locally slaughtered & locally sold ..

Richard has never let me down once in eight years, his meat is 1st class & although I pay a bit more than I would in my local Morrison's, I don't think his prices could realistically be described as being "top-dollar" ..

One would righly expect to pay a bit more for traceable, quality products, as the queue in the shop often proves ..

JuliaM said...

"Show me the politician with the nerve to advocate banning a practice that involves considerably more suffering than hunting with hounds."

They'll happily decide they don't want to eat it, though, as Capt Haddock points out...

"...and since there isn't anything like as much fuss made over kosher practices.."

Maybe the difference is in the fact that Judaism isn't considered an encroaching, proselytising religion?

"Kosher meat is OK for Christians because the riyuals are carried out in the name of Jehovah."

Interesting! I did not realise that...

"I assume you are at least nominally Christian.."

Nope. Don't believe in anything. Certainly don't believe in giving aid and comfort to my enemies, though!

JuliaM said...

"I'm all for religious freedom but I'm convinced at some point the wider population of the UK will have to make a stand against Islamic encroachment on the way the majority population lives."

Agreed.

"In ritual slaughter the expenditure of an animal's unique life and the debt owed to God for it, is recognized not just once but with every single cut. "

Or is that just lip-service?

I'm afraid, for me, it's the 'under the radar' aspect of halal slaughter than grates the most.

"One would righly expect to pay a bit more for traceable, quality products, as the queue in the shop often proves .."

I often buy meat from the online butcher Donald Russell - it's expensive, but the quality is superb.

Angry Exile said...

Maybe the difference is in the fact that Judaism isn't considered an encroaching, proselytising religion?

Yet another thing the religion of peace has in common with the religion of love - neither are really the religion of live and let live even though the vast majority of their respective adherents do just that. My Jewish neighbours may turn down half of what I'll put on a barbie (including kangaroo - turns out that the ancient Hebrews took one look at all those Skippies bouncing around Biblical Palestine and went 'Fuck eating those') but their faith hasn't been doing the proselytising by conquest thing for many centuries. Islam still does and the one into which I was forcibly baptised was doing it until very recently, arguably within my lifetime and certainly in living memory. Some might even say they're still at it too, but if so they're not doing a very good job of it.

But as I've said once or twice, Islam is a bugaboo. Yeah, some loonies with a firebrand imam may blow a handful of us up now and then, though the actual numbers make Islam vastly safer than any number of things. I'm probably more likely to be killed by a tram or the police or my own trousers than a Muslim terrorist, but I don't feel threatened by Yarra Trams, Victoria Police (oh, okay, a bit) or Levi Strauss. What does threaten me, or rather my freedom, on a daily basis is the nannying of various powerful Christians who want to save a soul I don't believe I or anyone else has got by restricting what we can say, do, think, read and consume. I think it's also telling that when it's the beliefs of these Christians (NB not all Christians, but these few powerful ones) that affect my life most, the current Emmanuel Goldstein and Two Minute Hate regular is not the Pope or the Archbarking of Canterbury but Islam.

Sorry, bit tangential to the topic of halal and kosher food.

A salt and battered said...

"Am I Being Churlish...?"

Well, striking deals with trash like Gadget to get your ban lifted, is peasant-like.

Furor Teutonicus said...

XX Nigel said...

What is 'unchristian' about Halal meat? It's only cut in a different way. XX

Aye. Cut accross the throat and left to drown in it's own blood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_bZzxep87c

Hexe Froschbein said...

Woman on a Raft said:

"That pre-stunning makes animals unaware of death is one way to view it; that pre-stunning reduces animals to protein and fat commodities which can be processed more smoothly and cheaply is another way. "

The problem here is that you've never slaughtered an animal, if you had, you would not talk such clueless (and heartless) rubbish, because you would have "halal'ed" a few by mistake and know what it really means to the animal.

Unstunned meat is contaminated with stress hormones and often has the additional problem of stomach fluid being breathed into the cut windpipe, and to make the toxic mess perfect, the carcass does not bleed out effectively either by quite a margin with this method.

Bon appetite...

Furor Teutonicus said...

XX Paul - Nottingham said...

As far as I'm aware, most of the meat sold in supermarkets is halal anyway, they just don't tell us about it. XX

That is why I ONLY eat pork.

"Halal THAT you bastards!"

JuliaM said...

"Sorry, bit tangential to the topic of halal and kosher food."

Actually, not at all! I don't care for many religions, but there's a political dimension to Islam that - for me - makes it different to the rest. Worse, somehow.

"Well, striking deals with trash like Gadget to get your ban lifted, is peasant-like."

Sorry to burst your conspiro-bubble, but I'm not 'in contact' at all.

I've no idea whether the ban has been lifted consciously, or simply because WordPress requites constant recertification of a ban, and it's expired without any notice.

Maybe I'll be banned again when the blogowner realises?

"That is why I ONLY eat pork.

"Halal THAT you bastards!""


:D

Angry Exile said...

... there's a political dimension to Islam

So you've said before. I'd agree that there is to Islamism but firstly I don't think that's quite the same thing, and secondly it again applies to Christianity. You only need to look at the influence of political Christianity in the US, parts of Europe and South America, and here in Australia. For me the only real difference is noise and numbers and that Christians are far better positioned if they want to fuck me up than Muslims are. If political Christianity left me alone then I'd have more reason to fear Muslims than Christians. Unfortunately it won't and if anything seems permanently on the lookout for means to increase it's grip.

So it comes back down to the question of who has had a bigger negative impact on my life and liberty, the faith with the billion+ followers, the jealous god, the holy book that justifies violence and hatred if that's what the reader wants to read and which lays claim on children forever, some of whom end up being abused... or the other faith with the billion+ followers, the jealous god, the holy book that justifies violence and hatred if that's what the reader wants to read and which lays claim on children forever, some of whom end up being abused. That Islam probably has a greater number of outright loonies is more than offset by the fact that many of Christianity's loonies are in positions of great power. Or perhaps loonies who believe they're Christians might be a better description, though whether their god would shake his head or shout approval as they piously drop the bomb is pretty irrelevant to anyone near ground zero.

Captain Haddock said...

@ AE ..

I must be honest & say that I'd never quite considered things in that way before ..

As one who regards religion (of all varieties) as something for the simple-minded (just like football, reality TV & soap operas) it can only have any impact on my life, if I allow it to ..

As I choose to completely ignore religion, football, reality TV & soap operas & all their associated rantings .. they have about as much relevance in my day-to-day life as quantum physics does (in actual fact, probably less so) .. ;)

Furor Teutonicus said...

XX Captain Haddock said...

As I choose to completely ignore religion, football, reality TV & soap operas & all their associated rantings .. they have about as much relevance in my day-to-day life as quantum physics does (in actual fact, probably less so) .. ;)XX

Try and buy a bottle of rum at 11:00 on a "good Friday", or any Sunday morning in Safeways, or any other licenced premesis.

When you can't, have a good think WHO sais, and WHY they say, you can't. Then get back to us with your thoughts.

Captain Haddock said...

@ FT ...

Whilst I fully acknowledge the point you make re licensing ..

I avoid shopping on Sundays & Bank Holidays because the shops are invariably crammed with gormless twats, who have nothing better to do than trail granny & umpteen kids round behind them ..

So, that aspect has absolutely no impact on my life ..

And if ones lack of planning & preparation ability permit one to run out of "essentials" (including Nelson's Blood) on a Sunday or Bank Holiday .. one deserves a short, sharp kick in the rowlocks .. ;)

Greencoat said...

Can we get any lower than crawling on our bellies to kiss Islam's hairy arse?

Furor Teutonicus said...

XX
And if ones lack of planning & preparation ability permit one to run out of "essentials" (including Nelson's Blood) on a Sunday or Bank Holiday .. one deserves a short, sharp kick in the rowlocks .. ;) XX

Totaly agreed.

But I always attempted to buy, even when I had a case already at home.

Just ot of principal. :-)