Wednesday, 11 May 2011

I Didn't Even Know They Were Reuseable!

Funny, on 'CSI' they're usually too deformed to get a good match, so I don't see how they plan to do this. And are the cuts that severe that they need to reuse ammo that...

The Metropolitan Police is to issue all its firearms officers with the type of ammunition used to kill Jean Charles De Menezes.

Hollow point bullets flatten and widen on impact, causing maximum damage to vital organs.

The Met says the round is less likely to splinter, harming bystanders.
Fair enough.
After it emerged he was killed with the ammunition, cousin Alex Pereira said: "I am shocked and angry. I had no idea.

"How can the police in the UK use bullets that the Army is not allowed to use
The Army's not allowed to use them in wartime, which is quite a different thing from anti-terrorist operations in crowded civilian streets.

And not to detract from the huuuuuge f**k-up that was the bungled De Menezes shooting, but given he took seven in the head at close range, he'd be deader than the LibDem's re-election hopes even if they'd used ordinary bullets, wouldn't he?


Captain Haddock said...

Without wishing to get involved in a mahoosive discussion about the whole De Menezes affair .. I would like to say that there is a complete world of difference between the type of ammunition to which the quoted article refers .. & "Hollow-Point" or "Dum Dum" type ammunition ..

The use of "Dum Dum" rounds is indeed prohibited by the Geneva Convention .. their manufacture involves hollowing out the point of the lead projectile & the insertion of a drop of liquid mercury, before being sealed again ..

The type of ammunition which is being proposed in this case is called "Frangible" ammunition, which is completely legal & is not even made of lead ..

Blame Hollywood/Television for the confusion, incorrect facts etc ..

The following article explains it better than I can ..

Anonymous said...

Many years ago a work colleague ran the company rifle club. He used to think nothing of taking over the kitchen stove to melt down old bits of lead and re-cast bullets. He had all the gear to fill the shells, and refit the new lead tips.

Probably not the sort that killed De Menezes though...


MTG said...

So called 'dum-dum' bullets are hollow-tipped to fragment on impact. This characteristic ensures massive tissue destruction and hemorrhage. A strike to any part of the body will prove very serious, if not lethal. A survivor of one hit is guaranteed surgery with high probability of amputation.

For all the above reasons, their military use was banned by the Hague Convention. Yes, I do see why the bloody Met are so keen to use them on civilians.

Unknown said...

MTG - the problem with the copper jacketed rounds that the military use is that they tend to go straight through. And keep going. Into someone or something else.

Now, that's fine when you're in an actual warzone in a firefight and lots of lead is going all over the place. But it's a completely different profile to a policing operation.

Back in a previous life, I used to carry Corbon ammunition. This was standard issue in the place I was working. The idea is that in a shopping centre or on a busy street, it would be nice if you could be relatively sure that you could take a shot without having to worry about who was behind the person you were trying to shoot.

You can't really tell people where to stand during a cash in transit raid or a robbery inside a supermarket.

Anonymous said...

Police should haver been using bullets that stop in what is shot at since my day. The problems concern what happens in target selection and to the advice given by people in Hogday's old role, when it is delivered to senior officers without a clue.
What's devastating is that the Met was not interested in the truth concerning Jean Charles' lamentable killing and will not learn and we can't insist they do.

Anonymous said...

Hollow points? Good grief, if you hit someone with those you could kill them! But I think they are only reserved for use on `certain` civilians.

Anonymous said...

Wayne is right. I once had to shoot a monkey. The bullet was never found, but there was one dead monkey. Technology got round the 'dum-dum' restrictions long ago MTG - much worse is 'allowed'.
What you want, in the misfortune of sitting behind a suicide bomber, is two of these in her head with no warning given. Though my preference would be for senior cops capable of raiding the flat she was in long before.

Shinar's Basket Case said...

[Slightly Off Topic But amusing]While wiki-ing up on the differences between bullets I came across this:

In warfare against savages, Ardagh explained to an absorbed audience, "men penetrated through and through several times by our latest pattern of small calibre projectiles, which make a small clean holes," were nevertheless able to rush on and come to close quarters. Some means had to be found to stop them. "The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged.. Your fanatical barbarian, similarly wounded, continues to rush on, spear or sword in hand; and before you have the time to represent to him that his conduct is in flagrant violation of the understanding relative to the proper course for the wounded man to follow - he may have cut off your head.""

Reads like the Met's Firearms Training Manual.

Dr Evil said...

Hollow point, dum dum bullets are outlawed by the Geneva convention. Governments sign up to treaties not armies. so the treaty applies to all armed individuals and organisations.

Brian said...

@Chalcedon: so why can the Police endorse a firearms certificate to permit possesssion and use of mandatory hollow point ammunition for shooting deer in order to comply with The Deer Act 1991? That Act conflicted withe the Firearms Act 1968. Use of hollow point ammo for killing of vermin and humane killing of animals is similarly permitted.
And hollow point ammunition in warfare was outlawed by the Hague Convention of 1899.

Anonymous said...

Having seen what passes for "professional" handling of weapons by Police I would not trust most of them with a Super Soaker.

The Travelling Toper said...

Perhaps the discussion should be about the weapons used by the police rather than the ammunition. Their use of very expensive H&K assault rifles that the Armed forces cannot afford should be called into question by politicians and public alike.Are such weapons necessary in the normal circumstances that a plod would need to use a firearm. If the article merely referred to hand gun ammunition then 9mm. ball shouldn't pass through a body into an innocent bystander.

Shinar's Basket Case said...

Toper raises a valid point. I'm no longer up on my weaponry but I'm guessing that the Police went for the HK because of its compact-but-fucking-accurateness and of course its German and no one does killing edge technology better. Compactness isn't such a consideration for the military.

As to the ammo, when executing persons suspected of having beards with intent or rather suicide bombers the police need to use bullets which cause the maximum damage (ie fragmentary/explosive/soft nose) inorder to destroy the brain before the nerve endings pass the 'take us all and our pants to paradise' command to the bombers fingers.

Outside that particular example the police could probably use bean bag shot guns most of the time.