This is not, you should understand, shameless opportunism.
Questioning it, however, is, as is pointing out where the police have slipped up, a very unfair tactic of me, it seems; Mops (to use some of Gadget's readers most polite term for 'us', members of the public) should just shut up, accept that the face of policing has changed and get out of the way of the police as they attempt to keep us ungrateful swines safe from each other.
Which is rather peculiar logic given that incidents like this are, thankfully, rare (a phrase that seems to be in fashion with police departments on some crimes, yet doesn't soothe the officers as it is meant to soothe us).
In fact, when lunatics off their medication run amok with knives it tends to be us, the public, who are most often in the firing line.
Yey I don't see anyone calling for us to be given the means and the right to self defence, do you?
And so I find myself rather less sympathetic to the idea that all frontline cops should be armed - something that would change the face of policing in the country forever - than I am to those officers in hospital, for whom I wish a speedy recovery.
We now return you to our regular scheduled posts...
34 comments:
I will support routine arming of the police just as soon as the likes of Gadget support routine arming of the population...
"Yey I don't see anyone calling for us to be given the means and the right to self defence, do you? "
Years ago-well 2003 to be precise- I was sitting in a Micky D's in South London. Just getting some lunch.
Place was fairly full, lot of Moms and kids. Suddenly a man came in the door. Two things were obvious about him 1. he was in the middle of argument with God, the cassette in his head stuck on loop-a Care In The Community Case- raging against the haloperidol.
2. He was armed. His open long greasy coat moved slightly to the side as he came through the doors and I could see from my vantage point-back to a face and face to the door as taught- a sawn off.
However it seemed that day wasn't the day for us all to die and the deranged guy turned and left to continue his row with the Almighty elsewhere.(Yes I did phone the Peelers).
Point is, as he walked in, my hand went for my gun or my knife...then I remembered I was back in the UK.
Have you ever tried to scribble a Last Will And Testament on a Mc Donalds paper napkin?
One good thing about yesterday's incident was hearing an Uber-Policey man on the radio saying something along the lines of "where the public step back, we step forward"
I thought that breed of copper had long been pensioned off.
I followed your debate with the Gadgeteers and was struck by your tenacity, resilience and patience. Once a must-read blog, it's now all I can do to skim the wretched thing from time to time, which leaves me infuriated and depressed in equal measure. The utterly indiscriminate disdain of IG and his acolytes for the general public, including those who should/could/used to be staunch supporters of the police, is appalling. I can only hope that many of his followers are not actually officers but sad wannabes acting out their fantasies electronically. (A man has to grab even a delusionary crumb of comfort when he can!)
And to think that Gadget's generation was probably one of the last overwhelmingly sound cohorts of decent proper police does not fill me with warm fuzzy feelings. God help us when the more recently indoctrinated chumps become numerically dominant: the stories I hear from a reliable source within the 'Service' are terrifying. It saddens me that I could even contemplate writing this about the police.
Hear hear Clarissa!
Julia we are going to have to disagree on this issue."The public" which you seem to want to speak for can run away when they don't like something.The police can't.It is ridiculous to want to arm the "public" just in case they are confronted by a madman.You only have to read the stories about road-rage and other assorted cases of random violence and now you want to add weapons for everyone into that equation?.There is also the question of training which we would get and you wouldn't.
Let's assume that the police aren't perfect because we aren't,I realise that.But until you can suggest an alternative then we are stuck with each other.
Everyone has an opinion on the police as probably every single person in the country has had an encounter with us.Some good some bad but what you have to realise is that there is a percentage of people in this country who will always hate and criticise us as we stop them doing naughty things.
Jaded
Girish Modha, 54, said: ‘He seemed very disturbed and was shouting a lot and not making sense. It wasn’t English.’
Chalk me up another MONA.
And what you have to ask yourself, Jaded, is what percentage of the people of this country who haven't anything to fear from you (well, at least in theory) hold you in high regard today compared with, say, 30 years ago.
You can blame the public's impression of the police on too much exposure to The Sweeney (or the Daily Mail) if you like, but it isn't true. It's because our experiences, collectively, are proving increasingly negative.
"There is also the question of training which we would get and you wouldn't."
Pretty much every european country that allows its citizens to own firearms requires proof of training and that at a level that probably far exceeds the current police training....judging by some of the incidents.
For example, to get a 'hunters licence' ie the right to own 'long firearms' in Germany takes two years of intensive and expensive training and costs more than a driving license to do.
Even back when I carried a hand gun, to get one legally one had to have been a regular at a gun club for a long time and had psychological tests along with criminal record checks. You weren't even allowed to have moved house within the last 3 years or so!
And that was among a population where the majority of men were weapons trained during national service.
No one, well no one sane, is suggesting that guns be on sale at the local petrol station.
Clarissa's nailed it. I live somewhere the police are armed, and not with tasers but Smith & Wesson .40s, and it really doesn't bother me that they're armed (possibly because the last British cop I spoke to before I left had a sub-machine gun). What does bother me is that I can't. I don't particularly want to and I don't feel the need to but it annoys me that I can't even if I did, especially when cops aren't supposed to be armed when they're off duty but a Deputy Commissioner was allowed to have a Glock because he'd received some threats.
Equality before the law, that's all we ask.
issitjuz cos i is a plod?
Good grief, not at all.
It's because you are a twerp.
Dear Uncle Badger,some good points.However public perception is very hard to measure.Everyone thinks they speak for the "public" including Julia.In reality you speak for yourself.
I know i'm swimming against the the tide but no matter how many posters here disagree with me I still get paid.
Jaded
"Everyone thinks they speak for the "public" including Julia.In reality you speak for yourself."
True, very true..but its funny how many voices-speaking-for-themselves there seem to be...across the different classes in society and political opinions.
Just the microcosm here on this blog shows that. Go to the left wing blogs, the right wing, the 'out-to-fucking-lunch' ones...its hard to find people who have much good to say about the police in general...and that's before you start on the MSM.
I read the Kingsbury incident as 'black nut-job' off his meds stabs police' - The officers were undoubtably very brave. Contrast them with the dire performance of Chief Supt 'Dal' Babu - a man so specially qualified that reading English didn't seem to be that easy for him. The GAdget blog has certainly not been my cup of tea for a while now and I too occasionally skim it. Nice to see that 'PC Lightyear' didn't feature much over the last few days - he must actually be doing some work. Despite the regular assertions from I-G himself and his guard dogs there really are hundreds of police officers I wouldn't trust with operating a manual pencil sharpener - and falling standards in recruitment since my time doesn't make me feel any safer. If the courts and the rest of the Criminal justice System was 'fit for purpose' and sentences fully served then things may be different but routine arming of the police with firearms is not something I support - tasers are a different matter but the training MUST be regular and failure not tolerated.
I've a feeling the Kingsbury nit-job will be just that.
Good evening, Jaded
"...no matter how many posters here disagree with me I still get paid...nayh, nayh, nya-nayh, nayh."
For as long as we 'Mops' (as you so disrepectfully call us) have a deadly State weapon pointed our way, prudence dictates we desist from tempting that puerile 'nayh, nayh, nya-nayh, nayh' response. And a moral argument is more likely to infuriate the likes of you, into squeezing the trigger.
Serious conflict with arming arose because contemporary police failed miserably to demonstrate personal qualities which justify the routine possession of deadly weapons. Police provide no convincing arguments but whine and wail for guns and instruments of torture.
The relevant views of most ordinary law-abiding citizens have now consolidated; a decent microcosm represented here above. If you feel more at home in the company of like-thinkers, you must engage with your own kind over at Gadget, in a good old fashioned back-slapping ritual.
Melvin back on form as usual.Once again in your blinkered world you think you speak for the public.You twist my words to suit as all anti's do and then after all your criticism you offer no alternatives.
If you are so correct about us being armed/tasers etc why does every other country except the UK have them.Are the French/German/Swiss police shooting people left right and centre?Do you visit those countries and worry about being shot?Or indeed Northern Ireland.
PS I never use the word "nayh"-well except just there of course.
PPS If I find I am losing an argument I promise not to shoot the other person.
Jaded
If I understood the thrust of what Gadget said, the problem does not necessarily need to be solved by issuing Tasers willy nilly, but by having enough Taser armed and properly trained Officers to attend incidents such as these quickly.
10 yrs of recruitment on the basis of diversity have undoubtedly damaged the Police and I agree with Ranter about the falling standards. If the rot stops now, we will have a decent Police Force in about 5 yrs
Chalk me up another MONA...
Yes I'm off to the local bookie for an accumulator bet on
MONA
Mental Health
Illegal, over stayer
BlueKnight you are correct on the recruitment point.However once they are in we are stuck with them.Even if they raised the standards again they can't backdate.
I think it will only get worse as the only people my force (Met) are recruiting are PCSO's and Specials.Some of them are dreadful.
Jaded
What Trevor said.
"Are the French/German/Swiss police shooting people left right and centre?Do you visit those countries and worry about being shot"
Point taken but you also have to admit that the French, the Germans and particularly the Swiss don't seem to have any real problems with citizens pulling guns in Road Rage incidents as you deem would happen here.
And before anyone googles up the odd few incidents were a Swiss has gone postal with a firearm remember that policemen from all those nations have also shot people by mistake.
As a long time lurker, may I say that I enjoy this blog?
I had to laugh at the Gadget Goons getting all angry at Julia's comments concerning the routine issuance of Tasers to coppers in Metroland.
I used to read Gadget regularly to get an insight into what 'ordinary' coppers were thinking. Now, with the marvelous comtributions of Buzz Lightyear, and even the Inspector himself sometines, it is comedy gold.
For what it's worth, I think, on balance, that general issuance of Tasers would probably right in the present day and age. With the broken 'judicial system' leaving various violent scum walking the streets, courtesy of Ken Clarke et al. I think it is inevitable. This must be with assurace that proper training is provided and that the use of said weapons would be appropriate.
I don't have any personal animus to the police, but neither do I have much faith in them. My few interactions with them have been polite but with little satisfaction – basically disinterest in damage to my car and also a theft – they did give me a crime number for insurance purposes though.
As a law abiding citizen (nary an SP30 to my name) in my seventh decade, I should be an ally of the police, but I'm afraid I have a great distrust of them. If they've lost me then I would have thought they have a bit of a PR problem to say the least.
"I will support routine arming of the police just as soon as the likes of Gadget support routine arming of the population..."
That'll be 'never' then, I suspect?
"Have you ever tried to scribble a Last Will And Testament on a Mc Donalds paper napkin?"
No, and I certainly wouldn't want one to be my last meal either!!
Of course, nowadays, we miss some of the signs of headwires being well and truly crossed; people having conversations with no-one are just assumed to be on Bluetooth...
"I thought that breed of copper had long been pensioned off."
Not quite, though we're getting there, I fear. And if he was a SMT rank, when he said 'we' he almost certainly meant 'they'...
" I can only hope that many of his followers are not actually officers but sad wannabes acting out their fantasies electronically. "
Let's hope so.
"There is also the question of training which we would get and you wouldn't."
As SBC points out, that's taken care of by legislation. Yes, there'd be those who tried to skip it, but we have those now, don't we?
"... what you have to realise is that there is a percentage of people in this country who will always hate and criticise us as we stop them doing naughty things."
Yup, but it's not their hate you need to fear, but everyone else's indifference, contempt or gradual realisation that you no longer represent them.
"Chalk me up another MONA."
Almost certainly. And if you read the comments in Gadget's, he's STILL violent. One wonders why he's not been transferred to a locked ward, rather than a police station.
"You can blame the public's impression of the police on too much exposure to The Sweeney..."
Oh, for John Thaw and Dennis Waterman now!
The Beeb expected the character of Gene Hunt to be loathed, and the character of Sam Tyler loved, as the modern, socially-aware policeman.
Alarm bells should have rung when it turned out to be the other way around...
"Equality before the law, that's all we ask."
Spot on!
"Everyone thinks they speak for the "public" including Julia.In reality you speak for yourself."
Yup, true enough. But SBC has a point, doesn't he?
"Contrast them with the dire performance of Chief Supt 'Dal' Babu - a man so specially qualified that reading English didn't seem to be that easy for him."
Yes, and he's a big, big part of the problem. Him, and the system that put him where he is.
"Yes I'm off to the local bookie for an accumulator bet on
MONA
Mental Health
Illegal, over stayer"
You're likely to get an accumulator there...
"As a law abiding citizen (nary an SP30 to my name) in my seventh decade, I should be an ally of the police, but I'm afraid I have a great distrust of them. If they've lost me then I would have thought they have a bit of a PR problem to say the least."
Spot on!
Well, I must confess to have rather enjoyed that one.
But wait....is that Gadget I see upping wicket and taking bat and ball home?
"No, and I certainly wouldn't want one to be my last meal either!!"
Its probably better than that which most Brits get as a Last Meal...courtesy of the NHS.
You couldn't serve hospital food in this cuntry in prisons...there'd be a riot.
I'm sad to read Paul's comments.
What's happening recently is that the media,lead by the BBC and the Daily Mail,are constantly reporting negative police stories.This is in my opinion directly coming from the government to harden public opinion against us so when our pensions and conditions are changed for the worst we will not get any sympathy from middle England.
Jaded
PS I don't expect sympathy from most people on here either,i'm a realist!
"so when our pensions and conditions are changed for the worst we will not get any sympathy from middle England."
You're probably right on that point at least.
"I will support routine arming of the police just as soon as the likes of Gadget support routine arming of the population..."
Hear, hear.
Alternatively, we could reconsider the presence of some millions of Africans and Asians in our country.
They do us no good.
@ Jaded
"I'm sad to read Paul's comments.
What's happening recently is that the media,lead by the BBC and the Daily Mail,are constantly reporting negative police stories.This is in my opinion directly coming from the government to harden public opinion against us so when our pensions and conditions are changed for the worst we will not get any sympathy from middle England.
Jaded
PS I don't expect sympathy from most people on here either,i'm a realist!"
If 'realism' extends to awareness of deficient education, you may wish to rectify the seventeen ghastly errors in your short post. Shoot us with Taser and baton rounds but please do not butcher our English.
Getting boring now Melvin.
Once again you belittle another poster with your superior intellect but offer no alternatives to the system we have already.
Please list the 17 faults.I'm all ears.Oh the humanity,it was ghastly.
Jaded
PS have the police in Huddersfield got tazer yet? If so I might be making a call to them just in case you ever get stopped!!!
A very good morning to you, Jaded.
"PS have the police in Huddersfield got tazer yet? If so I might be making a call to them just in case you ever get stopped!!!"
Indeed. In addition, they have the prototype taser shotgun (effective against diabetics and wheelchair bound) and a Taser sniper rifle - for the more sporting plod.
Sir Norm has promised an end to the big payouts for victims of conventional beatings, since these new weapons leave no nasty tell-tale contusions. A Taser Cannon which incapacitates thousands, is undergoing trials at Huddersfield stadium.
Your suggestion of making improper use of influence to secure a hot seat for me, suffices for shock purposes, Jaded.
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